MMasters in Business
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Trading LLC Joseph Saluzzi02 March 2015

Themis Trading LLC Joseph Saluzzi: Masters in Business (Audio)

2Frameworks
13Insights

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Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster17:03

Spoofing Is Not Liquidity—It Is an Intentional Market Fake

Spoofing creates the appearance of buying or selling pressure by layering orders that were never intended to execute. Once another participant reacts, the deceptive orders are canceled, making proof hinge on demonstrating the trader's original intent.

  • Spoofers place orders without intending to trade
  • Layered orders simulate large supply or demand
  • Orders vanish when another participant approaches
  • CFTC enforcement authority was strengthened under Dodd-Frank

“Spoofing is placing bids are offers where you have no intention of trading them”

Joe Saluzzi · 17:08

“Spoofing has no business being in the market”

Joe Saluzzi · 18:19
#spoofing#manipulation#order book#enforcement

Hot Take· 3

Hot Take40:08

Why a Wider Spread Could Improve Small-Cap Liquidity

Penny pricing lowered visible spreads but removed economic support for research and traditional market making in thinly traded companies. Saluzzi supports testing wider minimum ticks for smaller firms, provided market makers also assume meaningful size and quoting obligations.

  • Decimalization omitted a minimum spread
  • Thin small caps offer little incentive for durable market making
  • A nickel tick raises the cost of stepping ahead by one increment
  • Wider spreads should be tested rather than assumed to work
  • Economic benefits must be paired with liquidity obligations

“decimalization was great, but you never put in a minimum spread.”

Joe Saluzzi · 40:29

“You have to add otherwise no one's gonna do it.”

Joe Saluzzi · 42:42
#small caps#tick size#liquidity#market makers
Hot Take44:37

Flash Crashes Can Spread Beyond Equities

The same combination of electronic linkage, fleeting order books, and rapid strategy withdrawal exists in Treasuries and currencies. Commodities may be relatively more resilient because vertically organized markets and brief volatility halts provide stronger structural controls.

  • Treasuries experienced a rapid crash-and-recovery event
  • Currency markets lack a single consolidated linkage
  • Multi-asset strategies transmit shocks between markets
  • Commodity markets have more centralized controls
  • CME stop logic helped halt the 2010 cascade

“limit order books can quickly evaporate, and that's what we're dealing with.”

Joe Saluzzi · 27:14

“if it got too volatile, halted for five seconds.”

Joe Saluzzi · 48:07
#systemic risk#treasuries#currencies#commodities#circuit breakers
Hot Take49:30

Regulators Lack a Unified View of Microsecond Markets

Saluzzi argues that surveillance is split among regulators and asset classes while modern strategies trade equities, options, futures, bonds, and currencies together. Without a consolidated cross-market system, manipulation in one asset intended to move another may be practically invisible.

  • SEC surveillance trails microsecond trading technology
  • Futures and securities oversight are institutionally separated
  • Treasuries and currencies add further data fragmentation
  • Cross-market spoofing may evade detection
  • Private data analysts demonstrate that deeper surveillance is technically possible

“they don't have the surveillance they SEC in particular, does not have a surveillance system to keep up with today's modern markets”

Joe Saluzzi · 49:33

“if you're spoofing in the currency market to affect something in the bond market, you're never gonna be caught.”

Joe Saluzzi · 50:56
#regulation#surveillance#sec#cross-market trading

Explainer· 7

Explainer06:30

Decimalization Cut Commissions but Left Hidden Trading Costs

Saluzzi separates the dramatic decline in explicit commissions and quoted spreads from implicit costs such as information leakage and market impact. Electronic trading delivered major savings around 2002–2004, but institutional execution costs later leveled off because entering and exiting large positions remained difficult.

  • Electronic trading drove the largest decline in transaction costs
  • Decimalization replaced fractional quotes with penny increments
  • Explicit commissions differ from implicit market impact
  • Institutional cost improvements largely plateaued after 2007–2008

“But the real fact, and you look at charts and you can see this transaction cost for institutional investors dropped around two thousand and two,…”

Joe Saluzzi · 07:32

“How much leakage was there? Did you move the stock a certain amount”

Joe Saluzzi · 08:16
#decimalization#transaction costs#electronic trading
Explainer09:54

How Reg NMS Turned Competition Into Market Fragmentation

Reg NMS required brokers to respect the best displayed prices across competing venues, weakening the New York Stock Exchange's centralized specialist model. Saluzzi argues that the resulting proliferation of exchanges created latency differences, routing complexity, and new opportunities for high-speed strategies.

  • Trade-through protection requires access to superior displayed prices
  • NYSE market share fell sharply after the rule took effect
  • Multiple venues introduced quote and routing fragmentation
  • High-frequency strategies expanded within the new structure

“once this this fragmentation with the sec called competition, we call fragmentation it allowed noise and different types of venues to start coming through.”

Joe Saluzzi · 11:29

“And that's where the games began.”

Joe Saluzzi · 11:38
#reg nms#fragmentation#exchanges#market structure
Explainer11:47

Why High-Frequency Trading Defies a Simple Definition

High-frequency trading is not one uniform strategy. Saluzzi identifies recurring traits—speed, technology, short holding periods, and nearly neutral net inventory—while distinguishing legitimate electronic market makers from firms that ping, sniff, or exploit venue differences.

  • HFT is difficult to define as one category
  • Positions are commonly offset rather than held directionally
  • Holding periods are usually very short
  • Market making and predatory venue arbitrage should not be treated alike

“we really didn't come up with a very good definition.”

Joe Saluzzi · 12:00

“They're in and out very very quickly, very short holding periods exactly”

Joe Saluzzi · 12:31
#hft#market making#inventory#trading
Explainer13:18

How Colocation Creates a Faster Private View of the Market

Exchanges rent server space close to their matching engines, allowing well-funded traders to process direct feeds faster. By aggregating direct exchange data themselves, those traders can construct a national best bid and offer before the slower public SIP finishes consolidating the same information.

  • Colocated servers sit near exchange matching engines
  • Equal cable length applies within a facility, not across the whole market
  • Direct feeds can outrun the consolidated public SIP
  • Fractions of a millisecond are commercially valuable

“If the trick is to be as close as possible so that you can see the data coming at or process the data as fast…”

Joe Saluzzi · 13:45

“a half of a millisecond, So I Frequency Trader was all the time in the world.”

Joe Saluzzi · 15:10
#colocation#latency arbitrage#sip#market data
Explainer20:46

The Flash Crash Was a Liquidity Failure, Not Just One Large Order

Saluzzi rejects the explanation that a single large futures order caused the 2010 flash crash. He describes an already-fragile market in which automated traders passed positions among themselves, exhausted limits, canceled quotes, and withdrew, leaving market orders to search through nearly empty books.

  • Limit-order books emptied rapidly
  • Instant cancellation made displayed liquidity unreliable
  • Automated firms engaged in hot-potato trading
  • The cited futures order was not fully executed before the crash ended
  • Withdrawal by liquidity providers amplified the fall

“The cause was the market was on pins and needles. The bids and offers just evaporated.”

Joe Saluzzi · 21:55

“Everybody just walked away.”

Joe Saluzzi · 22:18
#flash crash#liquidity#market orders#systemic risk
Explainer29:50

How Dark Pools Shifted From Block Trading to Tiny Trades

Dark pools began as crossing networks where institutions could match large blocks without advertising them publicly. Saluzzi says many evolved into opaque, continuously operating venues with trade sizes below 200 shares and insufficient disclosure about participant priority and access.

  • Original dark pools crossed large institutional blocks
  • Modern pools often execute trades as small as lit venues
  • Participants may not know who receives priority
  • Lack of transparency can advantage one investor class over another

“dark pools are off exchange venues that don't need to publish their quotes.”

Joe Saluzzi · 29:50

“They have no idea who's getting teared and who gets the order first.”

Joe Saluzzi · 30:52
#dark pools#block trading#transparency#institutional investors
Explainer57:33

Why the Speed Race Shrinks Margins but Concentrates HFT Power

Every new microwave, laser, or data-processing advantage forces competitors to spend merely to remain viable. That arms race compresses margins, pushes smaller firms out, and leaves larger electronic market makers with more concentrated influence rather than eliminating HFT.

  • Speed infrastructure creates compulsory competitive spending
  • Infrastructure costs reduce HFT profit margins
  • Smaller firms are likely to disappear
  • Large firms gain market share and power
  • HFT is evolving rather than going away

“It's the term they call the race to zero.”

Joe Saluzzi · 57:33

“The bigger ones will get bigger, which does become an issue of how much power they have.”

Joe Saluzzi · 58:26
#hft#latency#competition#market concentration

Story· 1

Story23:12

How Stop-Loss Orders Sold Blue-Chip Stocks for Pennies

During the flash crash, activated stop-loss orders became market orders just as internalizers and displayed liquidity disappeared. With few bids available, those orders swept down the book until they reached absurd stub quotes, producing penny trades in otherwise valuable companies.

  • Stop-loss triggers convert into market orders
  • Retail internalizers withdrew during the disruption
  • Market orders continued searching for any remaining bid
  • Stub quotes allowed executions at absurd prices
  • Banning stub quotes did not solve the underlying liquidity problem

“Those stop losses became market orders once they activate”

Joe Saluzzi · 23:17

“It's there when you don't need it, and when you really need it it disappears.”

Joe Saluzzi · 24:28
#stop loss#flash crash#stub quotes#retail trading

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway1:04:01

The Simplest Retail Defense Against HFT: Trade Less

The episode closes with a practical distinction between institutional execution problems and ordinary long-term investing. Retail investors who avoid frequent short-term competition with high-speed firms greatly reduce their exposure to tiny execution disadvantages.

  • HFT advantages matter most when investors repeatedly compete for short-term execution
  • Long holding periods reduce the importance of millisecond differences
  • Retail investors need not imitate professional high-speed traders
  • Lower turnover can be a structural defense

“the best way to defeat high frequency trading is with low frequency trading.”

Barry Ritholtz quoting Josh Brown · 1:04:06

“if you're not in there trying to compete with these guys, you're not gonna lose them.”

Barry Ritholtz · 1:04:15
#retail investors#low frequency#long-term investing