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Torsten Slok30 January 2025

The US Economy and Trump Administration Policy with Apollo's Torsten Slok

3Frameworks
12Insights

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Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster27:41

Inflation Was Not Simply a Supply Shock or a Demand Shock

The episode rejects a binary explanation of pandemic inflation. Reduced production constrained housing, autos, labor, and other sectors while fiscal support simultaneously increased demand, causing both forces to push prices upward.

  • Pandemic disruptions reduced productive supply
  • Housing, autos, and labor faced notable shortages
  • Fiscal transfers and savings supported unusually strong demand
  • Supply constraints and demand stimulus reinforced one another

“it's a much more complicated situation where you both have supply constraints for housing for labor across the board.”

Torsten Slok · 27:50

“we did have a decline in supply and at the same time we had a significant increase in demand”

Torsten Slok · 28:06
#inflation#supply#demand#pandemic

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take41:33

The US Can Outgrow the World, but the S&P 500 Cannot Ignore It

Slok characterizes the United States as unusually insulated because domestic growth depends less on foreign demand than smaller open economies do. The S&P 500 is less insulated, however, because a large portion of its companies’ revenue comes from abroad.

  • The US economy depends less on foreign activity than smaller economies
  • Domestic tailwinds can sustain growth despite global weakness
  • About 40% of S&P 500 revenue comes from abroad
  • Weak foreign demand can eventually reduce US corporate earnings

“the US is actually the only economy in the world that's a close economy.”

Torsten Slok · 41:35

“forty percent of revenue and the SNP five hundred comes from abroad.”

Torsten Slok · 42:44
#us economy#global growth#sp500#earnings

Explainer· 7

Explainer17:36

Why 500 Public Companies Cannot Represent Six Million Businesses

Slok argues that finance pays disproportionate attention to the S&P 500 while millions of private businesses employ most American workers. Private equity and private credit therefore matter not only as asset classes but as financing channels for a large portion of the real economy.

  • Roughly six million US firms have employees
  • Public-market analysis covers only a small fraction of businesses
  • Private firms need financing to hire, build, and expand
  • Most US employment lies outside S&P 500 companies

“there are six million firms in the US that have employment.”

Torsten Slok · 18:02

“what about the remaining five point zero nine million companies that are not in this? In p. Five hundred? How do they get financing? Who…”

Torsten Slok · 1:08:55
#private markets#sp500#employment#finance
Explainer34:27

Higher Rates Hurt Debtors While Rewarding Asset Owners

Federal Reserve policy affects households unevenly rather than producing one uniform national experience. Younger and lower-income households often carry more credit-card, auto, student, and mortgage debt, while wealthier asset owners can benefit from higher returns.

  • Debt exposure determines much of the pain from higher rates
  • Younger households generally carry more debt
  • Lower-income households are often more vulnerable to financing costs
  • Asset owners can benefit while borrowers suffer

“FED policy has distributional consequences. It hurts those who have debt and it helps those who have assets.”

Torsten Slok · 35:12

“if interest rates are higher for longer, it by definition has a more negative impact on lower income and younger households”

Torsten Slok · 35:01
#federal reserve#inequality#household debt#interest rates
Explainer38:40

Why Rate Hikes Hit Europe Faster Than the United States

The prevalence of long-term fixed mortgages weakens monetary-policy transmission in the United States. In many other developed economies, mortgage payments reset more quickly, so central-bank increases reduce household cash flow with greater speed and force.

  • Most outstanding US mortgages have long fixed rates
  • Many other OECD mortgage markets reset more quickly
  • Variable payments transmit central-bank policy directly to households
  • The same rate increase can have different effects across countries

“When interest rates go up, mortgage payments for households go up immediately.”

Torsten Slok · 39:11

“Central Bank of fit policy simply has less of an impact. It's simply less potent relative to what you see, especially in Europe”

Torsten Slok · 40:01
#mortgages#europe#monetary policy#interest rates
Explainer36:25

China Faces a 100 Million Worker Demographic Headwind

China’s workforce is forecast to contract sharply as the consequences of the one-child policy intensify. Fewer workers also mean fewer taxpayers, consumers, and housing buyers, creating a persistent Japan-like drag alongside the country’s property and trade problems.

  • China’s workforce is projected to fall from one billion to 900 million
  • The decline affects production, taxes, services, and housing demand
  • The one-child policy is a central cause
  • Demographics compound housing-market and trade headwinds

“we are removing one hundred million people in the Chinese workforce over the next decade”

Torsten Slok · 36:35

“that you will get really what I would describe as Japanese style hit wins from a demographic perspective”

Torsten Slok · 40:54
#china#demographics#workforce#growth
Explainer44:04

Three Forces Behind Japan’s Economic and Market Revival

Japan’s improvement reflects a weaker exchange rate, corporate-governance reform, and investment shifting away from China. These forces have supported exports, encouraged private capital, and strengthened Japan’s position as an alternative Asian investment destination.

  • Currency depreciation supports Japan’s exporters
  • Governance reforms encourage investment and corporate change
  • Private equity and private credit have gained policy support
  • Concerns about China redirect some investment toward Japan

“there are three reasons why Japan is doing so well at the moment.”

Torsten Slok · 44:04

“the exchange rate is supporting the Japanese economic outlook, changes in governance and changes in corporate finance”

Torsten Slok · 45:21
#japan#governance#currency#investment
Explainer52:40

Tariffs Raise Prices While Threatening Sales and Growth

Tariffs operate as a stagflationary force when import costs increase consumer prices and suppress unit sales. Slok stresses that the scale and retaliation remain uncertain, but broad implementation would create simultaneous inflation and GDP risks.

  • Tariffs directly raise the cost of imported goods
  • Higher prices can reduce consumer purchases
  • Lower sales create downward pressure on GDP
  • Foreign retaliation adds another uncertain economic channel

“tariffs of course comes by definition with a stackflationary risk that you raise prices and your lower sales.”

Torsten Slok · 53:23

“if tariff's I imposed, it is something that the textbook would tell you that we would involve high invasion and at the same time downward…”

Torsten Slok · 54:01
#tariffs#inflation#trade#gdp
Explainer54:43

Mass Deportations Could Intensify Labor and Wage Inflation

Removing undocumented workers from an already tight labor market would disproportionately affect agriculture, construction, and restaurants. The immediate result could be more vacancies and wage pressure, adding to inflation even if the policy reduces the total workforce.

  • Undocumented workers comprise a meaningful share of several sectors
  • Agriculture, construction, and restaurants face concentrated exposure
  • Removing workers can increase vacancies
  • A strong starting economy amplifies overheating risk

“if you remove millions of people with through deportations, you will remove like two three four percent of the workforce.”

Torsten Slok · 55:02

“you will likely see wage inflation in construction, wage inflation in agriculture, and wage inflation in restaurants.”

Torsten Slok · 55:27
#immigration#labor market#wages#inflation

Story· 1

Story06:18

Learning Macroeconomics in the Deep End at the IMF

Slok describes being sent to Mongolia as a junior IMF economist to help analyze a program country. Working with senior officials taught him how to diagnose an economy, evaluate loan conditions, and connect financial assistance to politically difficult reforms.

  • The IMF assigned young economists directly to program countries
  • Slok’s first assignment involved Mongolia
  • IMF loans carry conditions intended to restore economic stability
  • The experience provided practical training in economy-wide analysis

“the young people who start in the organization throw them on deep water”

Torsten Slok · 06:20

“learning to analyze and understand an economy from a macroeconomic perspective.”

Torsten Slok · 07:13
#imf#mongolia#economic policy#career

Takeaway· 2

Takeaway47:00

Slok Prefers the S&P 400 Between Expensive Giants and Weak Small Caps

Slok warns that an S&P 500 purchase carries heavy exposure to a handful of highly valued companies. He also dislikes small caps because many lack earnings, leading him to favor profitable middle-market companies and the S&P 400 as a public-market alternative.

  • The top ten stocks represent a large share of the S&P 500
  • High concentration weakens effective diversification
  • Many Russell 2000 companies have no earnings
  • Mid-cap value companies offer a middle path

“Today, you're not diversified. You are basically betting on in Vidia still having good earnings.”

Torsten Slok · 49:01

“I don't like large cap because I think that's so expensive. I don't like small cap because I think they have no earnings.”

Torsten Slok · 51:56
#sp500#mid caps#diversification#valuation
Takeaway58:31

Uncertainty Can Freeze Spending Even Before Policy Changes

Forecasting models struggle to represent uncertainty about tariffs, taxes, immigration, and deregulation. Even before policies take effect, households and companies may delay otherwise attractive decisions because they cannot confidently estimate future conditions.

  • Policy uncertainty is difficult to quantify in standard models
  • Unknown rules complicate household and business planning
  • Waiting has economic consequences of its own
  • Delayed spending and investment can weaken activity

“There is no room in my Excel spreadsheet for the US economic outlook to stuff in uncertainty.”

Torsten Slok · 58:31

“policy uncertainty is something that is holding back investment and spending decisions by households and by firms.”

Torsten Slok · 59:21
#policy uncertainty#investment#forecasting#business