MMasters in Business
← All episodes
Matthew Kadnar05 April 2018

Matthew Kadnar Talks About His Transition From Law to Finance

3Frameworks
15Insights

Listen

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster47:55

Why Better Technology Does Not Necessarily Reduce Staffing Needs

Kadnar challenges the idea that software automatically lets investment firms achieve more with dramatically fewer people. Technology improves portfolio operations, but expanding compliance, data, client demands, and market complexity create new work and increase the need for specialized talent.

  • Compliance demands have expanded.
  • More data creates additional processing and interpretation work.
  • Client expectations make investment operations more complex.
  • Running more portfolios easily does not mean running them well.

“our world in general is becoming more complex and that is requiring additional resources”

Matthew Kadnar · 49:05

“You can run multiple portfolios and you can do it more easily, but that doesn't mean you do it as well.”

Matthew Kadnar · 49:23
#technology#asset management#complexity#operations

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take22:34

Why Inflation Could Damage Both Sides of a Traditional Portfolio

Kadnar argues that rising discount rates are a shared vulnerability for stocks and bonds, with equities carrying especially long duration. GMO therefore preferred inflation-linked Treasuries to nominal duration and viewed inflation as a greater long-term risk than deflation at that point in the cycle.

  • Higher discount rates hurt assets with duration.
  • Equities can have greater duration sensitivity than bonds.
  • GMO favored real duration through TIPS.
  • Inflation can compress profit margins and valuation multiples.

“The thing that will cripple anyone's portfolio is arise in the discount rate”

Matthew Kadnar · 23:49

“the concern is that inflation is a higher risk than um than deflation at this point.”

Matthew Kadnar · 24:08
#inflation#tips#duration#risk
Hot Take1:10:02

Why More Indexing Could Help Active Value Investors

Kadnar argues that growing index ownership can generate momentum and pricing inefficiencies rather than eliminate active opportunity. Cheap stocks that remain neglected continue producing earnings and dividends, although quantitative investors must work harder because basic factors and smart-beta tools have become commoditized.

  • Index flows can reinforce momentum.
  • Momentum can create exploitable mispricing.
  • Persistently cheap stocks continue generating underlying yield.
  • Commodity quant factors no longer provide the same edge.

“the more the world indexes, the better it becomes.”

Matthew Kadnar · 1:10:45

“There's nothing better than a cheap stock that stays cheap, because that you get the gift that keeps on giving”

Matthew Kadnar · 1:10:48
#indexing#active management#quant investing#alpha

Explainer· 6

Explainer07:10

GMO's Quantitative Definitions of Value and Quality

Kadnar separates value from quality using simple quantitative definitions. Value represents the cheaper half of the market, while quality combines low debt, high return on equity, and stable return on equity; cyclical and financial companies make value portfolios lower quality on average.

  • Value is defined as the cheap half of the market.
  • Quality combines low debt with high and stable ROE.
  • Value often contains more cyclical and financial companies.
  • High-quality assets may not become as deeply discounted.

“value is is basically the cheap half of the market, whereas quality is quantitatively low debt, high r o E and stable r o E”

Matthew Kadnar · 07:42
#value investing#quality#roe#equities
Explainer15:57

The Liquidity Mismatch Hidden in Credit Funds and ETFs

Kadnar warns that mutual funds and ETFs can offer daily redemption while holding underlying high-yield or leveraged-loan assets that are much less liquid. Investors may receive liquidity, but stressed selling can force prices sharply lower when everyone heads for the exit together.

  • Credit ownership shifted from insurers toward daily-liquidity funds.
  • Fund redemption terms do not make underlying loans liquid.
  • Stress can appear through price damage rather than denied liquidity.
  • The reach for yield may leave investors underestimating exit risk.

“their liquid claims on it liquid investments”

Matthew Kadnar · 16:31

“You can either get price or liquidity, but not necessarily both at the same thing.”

Barry Ritholtz · 17:38
#liquidity#credit#etfs#high yield
Explainer25:55

What the Next Recession's Fed Rate Could Reveal

Kadnar suggests that the policy rate prevailing when the economy enters recession could act as a signpost for the macroeconomic regime. A recession at a very low rate would support secular-stagnation concerns, while one beginning near historically more normal rates would weaken the case that the economy had permanently changed.

  • The recession-triggering rate can reveal economic sensitivity.
  • A low tipping point supports secular-stagnation concerns.
  • A higher tipping point suggests more normal historical dynamics.
  • The signal would be informative rather than definitive.

“what point were those rates tip the economy over into recession?”

Matthew Kadnar · 26:23

“it'll be a pretty good signal or pretty good sign post as where what regime we're in.”

Matthew Kadnar · 27:41
#federal reserve#recession#interest rates#macro
Explainer43:49

The Forces Keeping US Corporate Profit Margins Elevated

Kadnar offers several qualitative explanations for unusually high profitability, including reduced competition, increased corporate influence, and gains accruing to capital rather than labor. GMO incorporated higher US profitability into its models but acknowledged difficulty quantifying the causes confidently.

  • Reduced competition can support higher margins.
  • Corporate influence may make entry harder for challengers.
  • Flat real median wages shifted gains toward capital.
  • GMO raised its US profitability assumptions while retaining uncertainty.

“the benefits have approved that have have crued to capital rather than labor, and that's allowed profit margins to be to be higher.”

Matthew Kadnar · 45:33

“We've tried to quantify those, and we've been less successful in uh in in being able to put data to that.”

Matthew Kadnar · 44:54
#profit margins#competition#wages#capital
Explainer52:12

Why GMO Saw Emerging-Market Value as the Only Game in Town

Kadnar identifies emerging-market value as the standout equity opportunity, comprising an unfashionable mix of semiconductor, energy, utility, financial, and conglomerate holdings. Its forecast advantage over the next-cheapest asset class was so large that GMO increased its portfolio exposure.

  • EM value excluded the popular growth leaders of the period.
  • Its holdings formed a heterogeneous and unpopular group.
  • GMO measured its lead with a margin-of-superiority concept.
  • The unusually large return gap justified greater concentration.

“e M is really the only game in town, and specifically e M value.”

Matthew Kadnar · 52:25

“today e M value is is so by so far the most dominant in terms of its forecast that we've actually altered our portfolio construction…”

Matthew Kadnar · 53:15
#emerging markets#value stocks#portfolio construction#expected returns
Explainer1:06:38

The Hedge-Fund Feature Kadnar Still Finds Useful

Although industry growth and fees weakened aggregate hedge-fund results, Kadnar sees value in strategies that earn compensated risk over shorter durations. Merger arbitrage illustrates the idea: diversified deals with roughly 90-day average duration may suffer in a shock but can be less exposed than long-duration assets.

  • Industry crowding changed hedge-fund economics.
  • Short-duration risk can diversify conventional portfolios.
  • Merger arbitrage seeks an equity premium over brief deal windows.
  • Fees determine whether the return profile remains worthwhile.

“you are taking risk, but you're doing with a shorter duration.”

Matthew Kadnar · 1:07:54

“The average average duration of the deal is ninety days.”

Matthew Kadnar · 1:08:08
#hedge funds#merger arbitrage#duration#diversification

Story· 2

Story02:59

Why Matthew Kadnar Abandoned a Stable Legal Career

Kadnar describes being deeply unhappy with adversarial litigation despite having completed the conventional legal career path. A career-assessment book helped him connect his interests and strengths in finance, sales, and communication, leading to an opportunity at Putnam and the discovery that work could be enjoyable.

  • Litigation's adversarial culture made Kadnar miserable.
  • He matched enjoyable activities with perceived strengths.
  • Family members initially worried about leaving a stable profession.
  • Putnam gave him his first opportunity in finance.

“if if you enjoy what you're doing, you'll never work a day in your life.”

Matthew Kadnar · 03:54

“I discovered that you could actually enjoy working.”

Matthew Kadnar · 04:26
#career change#law#finance#purpose
Story42:51

Why GMO Took Its Gold Profits and Ran

Kadnar recounts GMO owning gold when Treasury-bill yields approached or fell below gold's yield during the financial crisis. The position made money, but the team exited because it could not construct a valuation it trusted, illustrating the discomfort value investors face with assets lacking measurable cash flows.

  • Gold is difficult to value through conventional cash-flow methods.
  • Relative yield conditions made it temporarily attractive in 2008.
  • GMO profited from the position.
  • The inability to estimate fair value ultimately drove the exit.

“it was the value manager's indulgence.”

Matthew Kadnar · 42:59

“we tried to value it and we just couldn't, and we got scared, and we just took our profits and ran.”

Matthew Kadnar · 43:31
#gold#valuation#precious metals#gmo

Tool· 1

Tool40:39

Using Emerging-Market Currencies as a Risk-Management Signal

GMO values currencies primarily through adjusted purchasing-power parity. Kadnar explains that emerging-market currencies provide both an expected-return input and a warning signal because past emerging-market crises often followed periods of currency overvaluation.

  • Purchasing-power parity anchors currency valuation.
  • Emerging currencies can contribute to equity returns.
  • Overvalued currencies have preceded major EM trouble.
  • Poor data makes extremes more informative than fine distinctions.

“the times where emerging has really got into a lot of trouble has been when the currencies have been overvalued.”

Matthew Kadnar · 40:57

“when you're really looking at currencies, you're looking at extremes that that's when that really matters.”

Matthew Kadnar · 41:49
#currencies#emerging markets#purchasing power parity#risk

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway08:13

How Kadnar Taught Himself GMO's Approach to Asset Allocation

Rather than relying mainly on academic literature, Kadnar learned by repeatedly questioning GMO's experienced investors and digesting their accumulated knowledge. His client-facing need to explain the firm's forecasts became an advantage and eventually helped him move onto the investment team.

  • Deep curiosity created an internal career opportunity.
  • Kadnar asked experienced colleagues extensive questions.
  • Most of his education came from internal practitioners.
  • Teaching clients forced him to clarify his own understanding.

“I basically asked my boss Ben Anker a million questions”

Matthew Kadnar · 10:13

“mostly trying to take the wealth of information that my colleagues had and digested in a way that that I could use.”

Matthew Kadnar · 10:49
#learning#mentorship#asset allocation#career development
Takeaway1:01:01

How GMO Tries to Avoid the Danger of Success

Kadnar says markets quickly humble successful investors, so GMO repeatedly examines what it did, what it omitted, and whether the reasoning was correct. Behavioral expertise and experienced investors help the firm challenge the temptation to see every expensive market as another familiar bubble.

  • Markets punish overconfidence quickly.
  • Post-decision review covers actions and omissions.
  • Behavioral expertise helps expose recurring biases.
  • Experienced investors contribute context from multiple cycles.

“the market does a wonderful job of humbling you because you're very, very quickly.”

Matthew Kadnar · 1:01:45

“that process of self introspection is very important.”

Matthew Kadnar · 1:02:06
#behavioral finance#humility#decision review#investing
Takeaway1:16:15

A Depression-Era Diary's Warning About Locking Up Capital

Kadnar highlights Benjamin Roth's contemporaneous account of seeing extremely cheap blue-chip stocks during the Great Depression but lacking money to invest. He connects that lesson to modern enthusiasm for private equity and direct lending, where investors may forget how valuable available liquidity becomes during a crisis.

  • Great opportunities are useless without deployable capital.
  • Economic survival can take precedence over investment bargains.
  • Modern portfolios increasingly lock money away for years.
  • Recent calm can push liquidity too far down the priority list.

“he said he had no money to invest in them, and and how much money he could have made if he did put some capital…”

Matthew Kadnar · 1:16:48

“nine years ago we saw how important liquidity was, and today that seems to be a very much a backseat consideration.”

Matthew Kadnar · 1:17:11
#liquidity#great depression#private equity#books