MMasters in Business
← All episodes
Ron Rhoades15 January 2016

Interview With Ron Rhoades: Masters in Business (Audio)

4Frameworks
15Insights

Listen

Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 2

Myth Buster16:27

Suitability Is Far Weaker Than Acting in a Client's Best Interest

Rhoades argues that suitability asks only whether an investment could be held by a particular client, not whether it is the best available choice. Under that standard, he says a product can be high-cost or tax-inefficient and the recommendation need not account for the risk of the portfolio as a whole.

  • Suitability does not impose the fiduciary duties of care and loyalty
  • A suitable investment need not be the best investment
  • The standard does not necessarily require tax efficiency or low cost
  • It can ignore portfolio-level diversification and risk

“All you have to do is make sure that this investment could be held by this particular client.”

Ron Rhoades · 18:21

“It doesn't have to be the best investment if it's in a taxable account, it doesn't have to be tax efficient.”

Ron Rhoades · 18:27
#suitability#fiduciary standard#investor protection
Myth Buster37:37

A Risk Questionnaire Cannot Replace a Personal Conversation

Rhoades describes robo-advice as a combination of rebalancing, data gathering, reporting, and a mass-market interface. He says online risk-tolerance questionnaires are helpful but inherently limited because willingness to bear risk differs from the amount of risk a client needs to take, which depends on broader circumstances.

  • Robo-advice assembled existing adviser software into a lower-fee interface
  • Asset allocation can be delivered cheaply at scale
  • Risk tolerance and need for risk are different questions
  • A personal conversation is needed to understand the broader factors

“Asset allocation is a commodity product. It's it's inexpensive of free, but advice, and good advice is fairly expensive.”

Ron Rhoades · 38:42

“people's need to take on risk is something completely different, and and that's set by a lot of different factors.”

Ron Rhoades · 39:22
#robo advisers#risk tolerance#asset allocation

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take40:51

Rhoades Says Fiduciary Status Cannot Be Part-Time

Rhoades rejects the idea that one adviser can alternate between fiduciary advice and commission brokerage for the same client without conflict. He says fiduciary status attaches to the relationship as a whole under relevant state common law, while noting that application differs by state.

  • Selling and fiduciary counseling create incompatible loyalties for one client
  • Rhoades treats fiduciary duty as a status rather than a product switch
  • The whole relationship can fall under the higher standard
  • The legal application is not identical in every state

“No person can wear two hats at the same time.”

Ron Rhoades · 41:30

“fiduciary is a status. You become a fiduciary to that client, which means the entire relationship should be subject to that fiduciary can't be a…”

Ron Rhoades · 41:51
#hybrid advisers#dual registration#fiduciary status
Hot Take51:53

A Firm Cannot Adopt Fiduciary Culture Halfway

Rhoades says most individual brokers want to help clients, but brokerage firms retain incentives tied to proprietary products and revenue. He argues that a fiduciary culture must be driven from the top and that partial platforms will keep losing market share unless firms remove most conflicts and align advisers with clients.

  • Individual brokers and brokerage firms can face different incentives
  • Culture change must begin with firm leadership
  • Fee-only platforms reduce the conflict between selling and advising
  • Rhoades says halfway adoption leaves the underlying tension intact

“Most individual brokers want to do the right thing for their clients. Most brokerage firms are worried about their top line and bottom line”

Ron Rhoades · 52:32

“a fiduciary culture needs to be driven from the very top of the firm.”

Ron Rhoades · 55:13
#fiduciary culture#sales culture#organizational change

Explainer· 6

Explainer11:24

Why Apparently Free Financial Advice Can Be Expensive

Rhoades says clients often believe they have never paid a broker because no explicit commission appears. He points to bond markups, 12b-1 fees, shelf-space payments, revenue sharing, gifts, and variable product compensation as costs or incentives that can remain hidden from the investor.

  • A principal bond transaction can contain a markup instead of a commission
  • Fund distribution and shelf-space payments can influence sales
  • Variable compensation rewards one product more than another
  • Clients may mistake a product salesperson for an unbiased friend

“just a ton of conflicts of interest and a lot of hidden fees. Clients have no idea what they're paying.”

Ron Rhoades · 11:24

“They're selling you by on is at a markup, not a commission.”

Ron Rhoades · 11:54
#hidden fees#broker compensation#conflicts
Explainer28:15

Why the Labor Rule Looked Like a Fiduciary Tipping Point

Speaking before the 2016 conflict-of-interest rule was finalized, Rhoades expected advice to ERISA retirement plans and IRAs to become fiduciary advice. He argued that this could bring roughly half of managed assets under a fiduciary standard and predicted that fee disclosure would lower costs.

  • The proposed rule targeted advice to covered retirement plans and IRAs
  • Rhoades expected fiduciary obligations to follow that advice
  • He described the expanded asset coverage as a tipping point
  • The discussion was a 2016 forecast, not a statement of current law

“Once you disclose all the fees and costs, attends to lower things.”

Ron Rhoades · 28:39

“about half of the total assets under management are going to be governed by a fiduciary standard by the time this year rolls around.”

Barry Ritholtz · 30:27
#department of labor#retirement accounts#regulation
Explainer39:43

Why Great Financial Planning Takes Five to Ten Years to Learn

Rhoades tells students that portfolio management can be taught far faster than excellent financial planning. Planning is both broad and deep, spanning tax, estate, insurance, debt, major expenditures, and investments; experience is what teaches advisers how one decision changes another part of the client's life.

  • Investment management is only one part of financial planning
  • Planning also covers tax, estate, insurance, debt, and major spending decisions
  • The challenge is understanding interactions across those domains
  • Rhoades estimates that excellence usually takes five to ten years of experience

“if you want to be a great financial planner, it's going to take you five to teen years.”

Ron Rhoades · 39:51

“the only way to start connecting those dots, you know, if you do one decision over here, how does it affect something way over here…”

Ron Rhoades · 40:24
#financial planning#expertise#career development
Explainer43:17

How Industry Arbitration Can Lower a Fiduciary Standard

Rhoades argues that an arbitration system focused on a general sense of fairness can apply a less exacting standard than fiduciary law requires. He says many arbitrators came from the brokerage side rather than a fiduciary environment, which could shape their understanding of conflicts and substantially fair transactions.

  • Fairness and fiduciary law are not necessarily the same test
  • Fiduciary conflict rules can be stricter than an arbitrator's intuition
  • Industry background can shape what an arbitrator perceives as fair
  • Rhoades calls for ending mandatory arbitration

“that application of fairness actually works to lower the fiduciary strict the strictness of the fiduciary standard in the way it's applied.”

Ron Rhoades · 44:01

“we need to do away with mandatory arbitracition, there's no question about it.”

Ron Rhoades · 45:51
#arbitration#finra#fiduciary law
Explainer47:09

Why the Broker Protocol Can Still Hurt the Client

Rhoades says the broker protocol was designed to reduce lawsuits between firms, but the client can remain poorly served when an adviser leaves. The old firm may slow transfers and try to retain the account while the departing adviser lacks information, leaving the investor caught between competing businesses.

  • The protocol primarily resolves disputes among firms and brokers
  • Clients often follow advisers who leave wirehouses
  • Transfer delays can interrupt service
  • Rhoades proposes sharing the economic value of client relationships

“The client is not being served in the middle of all of this most of the time.”

Ron Rhoades · 50:15

“this client relationships should not be owned by the firm itself but ought to be shared with the financial advisor.”

Ron Rhoades · 50:54
#broker protocol#client transfers#wirehouses
Explainer57:41

The Operational Case for a Fee-Only Division

Rhoades says a strict fee-only, conflict-free environment produces fewer complaints and lowers per-adviser liability insurance and compliance costs. For a wirehouse, he proposes a separate registered-investment-adviser division, no product sales, and walls around activities such as buying bonds from the firm's own inventory.

  • Removing product sales reduces important sources of complaints
  • Lower exposure can reduce liability insurance costs
  • Compliance remains necessary but can be structured differently
  • A separate division and trading safeguards protect the advisory model

“If you get away from the door registrant and you go to a strict fee only, conflict free environment, the amount of complaints falls dramatically.”

Ron Rhoades · 58:20

“You still need compliance systems, but they're set up differently”

Ron Rhoades · 58:43
#fee only#compliance#wirehouse transformation

Story· 1

Story05:02

A Failed Adviser Search Led Rhoades to Build His Own RIA

Rhoades says CPAs asked him to help interview local financial advisers because they were unhappy with their referrals. After roughly a dozen candidates failed to meet expectations, the group examined eight business models and formed an independent registered investment advisory firm.

  • The project began as a search for a trustworthy referral partner
  • About a dozen interviews produced no acceptable adviser
  • The founders explored eight possible business models
  • They chose an independent registered investment advisory firm

“we did about a dozen interviews and nobody even came close to to meeting our expectations.”

Ron Rhoades · 05:44

“we explored eight different business models and ended up forming our own independent registered investment advisory firm.”

Ron Rhoades · 06:00
#ria#entrepreneurship#financial advice

Tool· 1

Tool1:25:00

The Books Rhoades Would Keep on an Investor's Shelf

Rhoades recommends Peter Bernstein's work, Larry Swedroe's writing, Roger Gibson's Asset Allocation, and George Clason's The Richest Man in Babylon. He distinguishes Gibson's detailed professional treatment from a more accessible undergraduate-level book and says Clason's parables teach durable lessons such as living below one's means.

  • Rhoades rereads Peter Bernstein's investing books
  • He recommends What Wall Street Doesn't Want You to Know for beginners
  • He names Roger Gibson's Asset Allocation as an essential technical book
  • He gives The Richest Man in Babylon to clients and their children

“if you had only two books on your bookshelf, one of them are to be Roger Gibson's Ascid Allocation”

Ron Rhoades · 1:27:01

“the other one is a book that's almost a hundred years old. Now it's you can find it on the web for free. It's a…”

Ron Rhoades · 1:27:40
#books#investing education#asset allocation

Takeaway· 3

Takeaway36:35

Rhoades Says Advisers Are Stewards of Clients' Happiness

Rhoades frames wealth accumulation as a means rather than a final objective. He says money can buy security, time for relationships, wider experience, or the ability to give back, making a good adviser a steward of the hopes and daily happiness those resources support.

  • Wealth should serve a life rather than become its endpoint
  • Financial security is one possible use of accumulated wealth
  • Money can create time for family, friends, exploration, and community
  • Advice should remain connected to the client's hopes and dreams

“a good financial counselor is a steward of not only wealth, but also the client's hopes and dreams.”

Ron Rhoades · 36:30

“They they are stewards of clients happiness.”

Ron Rhoades · 37:24
#wealth#happiness#financial planning
Takeaway1:05:20

Investment Advice Scales; Financial Planning Does Not

Rhoades expects investment fees to fall because much investment advice can be commoditized and scaled. He contrasts that with financial planning, which remains time- and expertise-intensive, and predicts a professional-services structure with associates, junior partners, and senior partners rather than extraordinary pay driven mainly by sales.

  • Product and investment-management fees face continued pressure
  • Investment advice can be standardized more readily than planning
  • Financial planning requires intensive professional time and expertise
  • The likely operating model resembles a law or accounting firm

“the investment fees will come down”

Ron Rhoades · 1:05:44

“investment advice, which degree can be commoditized at least it's scalable, and and finding interplanning advice, which really is not scalable.”

Ron Rhoades · 1:05:51
#fee compression#professional services#financial planning
Takeaway1:34:46

Promise a Disciplined Process, Not an Exact Retirement Date

Asked what he wished he had understood earlier, Rhoades names uncertainty. He criticizes plans that promise retirement at a precise age despite unknowable future returns and says advisers should instead explain how disciplined long-term behavior can improve the speed and quality of progress toward lifetime goals.

  • Uncertainty is permanent in investing and planning
  • Future returns cannot support a guaranteed retirement date
  • Advisers can credibly promise a disciplined process
  • The process should improve progress without claiming a precise outcome date

“One thing uncertainty, Uh, it is prevalent. It is with us, it will always be with us.”

Ron Rhoades · 1:34:49

“I can help you retire early. I don't know when that will be”

Ron Rhoades · 1:36:04
#uncertainty#retirement planning#expectations