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Armen Panossian22 September 2023

Armen Panossian on Credit in a Time of Rising Rates

3Frameworks
12Insights

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Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster28:33

Wider Private-Credit Spreads Did Not Necessarily Mean Worse Borrowers

Comparable private loans widened by about 150 basis points in 18 months, in addition to the rise in the base rate. Panossian attributed much of the change not to higher default risk in the new vintage but to a supply-demand imbalance after banks withdrew from buyout financing.

  • Comparable spreads rose from roughly 475-550 to 625-650 basis points
  • The widening came on top of a major increase in SOFR
  • New-vintage default risk was not viewed as the principal explanation
  • Banks reduced competition after 2022 syndication losses
  • Private lenders gained pricing power as alternative financing receded

“it's about one hundred and fifty bases points wider in just eighteen months.”

Armen Panossian · 28:43

“I think it's more a technical imbalance between the demand for private credit versus the supply of private credit”

Armen Panossian · 29:04
#credit spreads#private credit#default risk#supply and demand#banks

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take25:51

Higher Rates Slice More of the Corporate Pie for Creditors

Panossian argued that rising rates shifted the division of corporate cash flow away from equity and toward creditors. With first-lien private credit yielding around 12%, he expected credit to compare favorably with equities over the following few years.

  • Public fixed income became more attractive in absolute-return terms
  • Private credit added compensation for complexity and illiquidity
  • Large-company first-lien private debt offered yields near 12%
  • Higher interest costs transfer more enterprise cash flow to creditors
  • The shift reverses the equity-friendly easy-money era

“the FED has said, well, I'm going to slice off more of that pie for creditors than i am for equity.”

Armen Panossian · 27:25
#credit#equities#interest rates#cash flow#relative value

Explainer· 7

Explainer15:34

Why Cheap Floating-Rate Debt Became a Legacy LBO Trap

Private-equity sponsors favored floating-rate loans because they lacked costly call protection and could be refinanced as markets tightened. Many failed to hedge sufficiently, leaving hundreds of billions of dollars exposed when benchmark rates jumped from near zero to more than five percent.

  • Floating-rate debt made repeated refinancing cheaper during easy-money markets
  • Only about one-third of floating-rate debt was estimated to be hedged
  • Higher benchmark rates nearly doubled interest coupons for some borrowers
  • COVID disruption and inflation compounded the debt-service pressure

“private equity sponsors prefer floating rate debt.”

Armen Panossian · 15:34

“you have almost a doubling of the interest coupon paid by some of these businesses”

Armen Panossian · 16:24
#floating rates#leveraged buyouts#hedging#private equity#credit risk
Explainer16:52

Why New Private Credit Offered High Yield With Larger Equity Cushions

New buyout loans were yielding roughly 11% to 13% while sponsors supplied 50% to 70% of transaction capital as equity. Because recession risk and borrowing costs were already visible, lenders and sponsors were underwriting explicit stress cases, producing lower loan-to-value ratios and stronger credit quality than older vintages.

  • First-lien private loans were yielding about 11% to 13%
  • Sponsor equity checks commonly covered more than half of enterprise value
  • Leverage generally ranged from 4.5 to 6 times EBITDA
  • Stress cases assumed further economic deterioration
  • Stable, low-cyclicality businesses could still offer attractive returns

“everyone is underwriting as if that is a certainty.”

Armen Panossian · 17:42

“credit quality as a result is quite high, the returns are quite high, and the loan to values are quite low”

Armen Panossian · 17:45
#private credit#first lien#loan to value#stress testing#buyouts
Explainer19:40

How Quantitative Easing Supercharged the CLO Formation Engine

Bank reserves created through quantitative easing fueled demand for AAA CLO securities. Cheaper AAA financing improved the arbitrage available to CLO equity investors, encouraging record CLO issuance and additional loan origination by Wall Street banks.

  • Syndicated loans form the asset side of a CLO
  • Rated securities finance the portfolio from AAA through lower-rated tranches
  • AAA securities comprise roughly 60% of the capital structure
  • Stronger AAA demand lowers the CLO's borrowing cost
  • CLO issuance reached about $175 billion in 2021

“the biggest part of that capital structure, about sixty percent of it, are the triple A securities.”

Armen Panossian · 20:42

“a tremendous amount of CLO issuance occurred in twenty twenty one, larger, more active than any other year on record”

Armen Panossian · 21:05
#clo#quantitative easing#bank reserves#syndicated loans#structured credit
Explainer29:57

Why Oaktree Kept Portfolio Managers at the Center of Leadership

Oaktree divided leadership between institutional operations and investment-led strategy. Panossian said remaining a portfolio manager keeps senior leadership close to clients, markets, and the practical risk-and-return information clients value.

  • A dedicated CEO previously institutionalized non-investment processes
  • Todd Molz was set to manage administrative and non-investment functions
  • Bob O'Leary and Panossian would provide strategic leadership as co-CEOs
  • Both co-CEOs planned to remain active portfolio managers
  • Market proximity was presented as essential to client proximity

“to be as close to our clients as possible would mean that we need to be as close to the markets and actual investments as…”

Armen Panossian · 31:25

“it's giving them really on the ground knowledge about what we're seeing in the markets from a risk and return standpoint”

Armen Panossian · 31:34
#leadership#co-ceo#asset management#portfolio management#clients
Explainer37:55

How an Inverted Yield Curve Tells Banks to Stop Lending

An inverted curve makes banks' borrow-short, lend-long model less attractive because short-term funding costs exceed long-term lending rates. Panossian expected restrictive rates to reduce lending and business investment, although long-lived fiscal programs could partly offset that contraction.

  • Short-term borrowing costs exceeded long-term rates
  • The inversion undermined traditional bank lending economics
  • Reduced credit availability discourages business investment
  • Panossian expected the Fed to hold rates high until material economic damage appeared
  • Infrastructure and manufacturing stimulus complicated the recession outlook

“they borrow short and lend long.”

Armen Panossian · 40:05

“the FED is telling banks stop lending and to corporate borrowers, stop borrowing for the purpose of investing in your business.”

Armen Panossian · 40:10
#yield curve#recession#bank lending#federal reserve#fiscal stimulus
Explainer47:55

Why Housing Shortages Delayed the Bite From Seven-Percent Mortgages

Despite high mortgage rates, homebuilders continued selling because constrained housing supply supported prices and allowed builders to subsidize buyers' rates. Panossian expected pressure to emerge later as cheap land inventories were exhausted, construction costs stayed elevated, and new-home and multifamily activity weakened together.

  • Resale velocity slowed more than new-home sales
  • Single-family and multifamily housing remained undersupplied
  • Builders used pricing margins to buy down mortgage rates
  • Land and construction costs threatened future margins
  • A combined decline in sales and construction would make the economic bite more visible

“there is a shortage of housing stock.”

Armen Panossian · 48:27

“the homebuilders will exhaust their low cost basis.”

Armen Panossian · 48:53
#housing#mortgage rates#homebuilders#supply shortage#construction
Explainer45:22

The Fed May Keep Rates High to Rebuild Its Emergency Lever

Beyond current inflation data, Panossian identified an institutional reason for keeping rates elevated: future crises are easier to counter when policymakers have room to cut. After years near the lower bound, the Fed had regained that lever and had reason to preserve it carefully.

  • Low rates limited the Fed's ability to respond to future shocks
  • Higher rates rebuild room for monetary easing
  • Current data did not support a rapid pivot
  • Policy was expected to remain restrictive for a long period
  • Contemporary rates were not historically extraordinary

“you need high rates to be able to reduce those rates and correct for that shock.”

Armen Panossian · 45:59

“the FED is predisposed to leaving rates high longer because of this academic need”

Armen Panossian · 46:24
#federal reserve#monetary policy#interest rates#inflation#rate cuts

Story· 1

Story23:02

The Three-to-Six-Month Switch That Opened the Direct-Lending Market

When quantitative easing reversed, banks stopped buying AAA CLO securities and the loan-distribution engine stalled. Banks were left with hung syndications and large losses, while direct lenders stepped in to offer borrowers certainty of execution without ratings processes or broad roadshows.

  • The shift felt abrupt but took three to six months to become fully visible
  • Banks stopped buying AAA CLO securities as reserve flows reversed
  • Committed syndications became hung loans sold at discounts
  • Syndication changed from a fee source into a major loss source in 2022
  • Borrowers accepted higher spreads in exchange for execution certainty

“the banks then said I'm not a buyer of tripleas at all, at any price”

Armen Panossian · 23:18

“the direct lenders had the opportunity to step in into that void and provide capital that was secure in terms of a certainty of execution”

Armen Panossian · 24:18
#quantitative tightening#direct lending#hung loans#banks#clo

Tool· 1

Tool41:44

Use Public BDC Disclosures to Track Private-Credit Stress

Panossian expected elevated defaults among the weakest older private-credit deals and suggested public business development companies as an observable window into the pressure. Rising non-accruals and amendment activity can reveal stress building in otherwise opaque private portfolios.

  • Older sponsor-backed vintages carried the greatest concern
  • The weakest 20% to 30% of portfolios faced elevated risk
  • Public BDCs disclose non-accruals and borrower amendments
  • Escalating amendments can precede or accompany defaults
  • Lower leverage and strategy diversification can improve resilience

“there will be elevated defaults and risk, especially in the weakest you know, maybe twenty or thirty percent of private credit portfolio.”

Armen Panossian · 41:53

“they will see an escalation in those types of those types of risks UH that are reported by the BDCs.”

Armen Panossian · 42:21
#bdc#defaults#private credit#non-accruals#portfolio risk

Takeaway· 1

Takeaway57:25

Combining Finance With Domain Knowledge Can Turn Capital Into Impact

Panossian initially viewed investing as merely a way to earn a living, but later found that pairing finance with industry expertise could support meaningful change. His healthcare background helped inform a life-sciences lending strategy intended to finance biotechnology and pharmaceutical work.

  • Investing is broader than selecting public stocks
  • Industry knowledge can improve capital-allocation insight
  • Multidisciplinary experience can reveal specialized opportunities
  • Life-sciences lending connected financial skills with healthcare outcomes
  • Finance can build useful capabilities rather than serving only as a means to income

“if you do marry investing and finance with knowledge of an industry, then you are able to generate or or or drive change.”

Armen Panossian · 1:03:45

“I am building something or I can be building something in finance.”

Armen Panossian · 1:04:32
#multidisciplinary#finance careers#life sciences#impact investing#domain expertise